blevkog

I'm troubled by the 22 per cent of people with post-grad degrees that believe in creationism. Where did these people go to school?

I'd like to see the sampling parameters of this - it stinks of bias.

probably all those damn Arts grads....though i know some pretty religious science grads.......

nothing like ignorance to make one blissful.....

Hey, there are a *ton* of schools offering graduate degrees in divinity and such.

Bias, maybe, but it is Gallup, and they are generally pretty responsible. (Also note in the article that the numbers have not changed in some time...)

You have just insulted about 100 million religious Americans, and approx 5 million Canadians...which is very fair. So, how about depicting Allah in cartoons, that must be fair game as well?? Its funny, my Mom still slaps my mouth with a wooden spoon and gets very insulted when I talk like that, is her head up her ass too?? Oh, and she belongs to a very large church who believe the same thing in Ottawa, are their heads up their ass's too?? Just wondering. Hey, I'm not offended, but I've learnt through many wooden spoons to the lips to respect her religion.

gwilliamjr,
My goal with this post is not to attack religion, rather to attack the way that people allow themselves to use religion as a means to deny reality. Religion is all well and good, there is a structure there that people obviously need, but when religion tells you "white" when the reality is black, and you see white, then we have a problem.

Creationists believe what they believe in spite of reality, ergo, head up ass. Crude, but apt.

Well, gwilliamjr:

The Archbishop of Canterbury says you've got your head up your ass.

The Head of the Vatican Observatory says you've got your head up your ass - in fact, according to him, you're belittling his religion.

Here's 10,000 Clergy that say you've got your head up your ass!

Frankly, neither Kevin nor myself have any intention of insulting religion, what you choose to believe should be your own choice, and I personally believe that religion is one of the better guides to how someone should live their life. The problem is that people like you and your mother and the Islamist Fundamentalists protesting cartoons to boot, can't contend with the fact that there are people who might disagree with you - in short, you wish to dictate how I should live my life and that's when you run into the giant outstretched middle finger of 'go fuck yourself".

BTW, the whole "it must be okay to portray Allah in cartoons' is a strawman argument - it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. But, considering that in the Wizard of Oz, the Strawman is the character who has to find a brain, it's oddly appropriate coming from you.

Cool answer, and very telling of both of you. You disagree with Creationists so their heads are up their ass. Oh how the tolerant are so intolerant. Its amazing to me how bigoted some of you progressives are, and how hate filled you are to any thing un-you may be. How in the hell is believing what the bible say's so f'n intrusive to your intolerant life?? How do church groups interfere with your intolerant life?? Go be progressive, hate, be bigoted to anything un-you, no one cares chum...not me, not the 5 million Canadians, but why do you care what they do?? No one in Canada or the US wants you to change religion..no one, so whats up with the head up the ass remark?? Wheres all the anger coming from?? And by the way, my brain is fine, its an older brain that has learnt the hard way that it doesnt have all the answers, and that, maybe it shouldnt judge other brains by their beliefs or religion. In my world you can have your fun and your opinion in the face of any religion or race..why is it in your world the same tolerance just isnt there. Tell me once more, why do people who believe in the bible scare you so much?? Are there other religions that scare you as well?? There must be. Scientology? Muslim beliefs are far more radical than a Southern Babtist. I make a simple point and you boys attack me. Thats whats so very telling about both of you. Its your intolerance thats so scary.

Gwiliamjr:
I think it's safe to say that religious people don't 'scare' us, as you put it. If you've read this blog in the past, it will become readily apparent that we, as a group, are of a scientific bent, and are thus quite convinced of the precepts of planatary formation (through accretion, or whatever means seems to hold sway - not my area of expertise) and the subsequent development of intelligent life through natural selection.
We are determined to point out what we consider to be absurdities in various areas of politics and popular culture, and we consider the concept of creationism to be absurd. We have the right to think this way, as you have the right to believe whatever you want - part of these precious rights is the right to consider the other person wrong based on the available evidence. Creationism has no supporting evidence, therefore we disagree, and will for the forseeable future.
I don't think invective helps anyone, and confirms the worst aspects of what each of us thinks about the other - if anything else, it makes us more 'other'.
Some of us are more 'passionate' than others, that's fine - it defines our personalities and writing styles, which hopefully keeps this blog interesting. I'd just like to keep the discourse at a reasonably high level. None of us do our beliefs any justice if we start generalizing and demonizing.
I don't mean to wag my finger at anyone, but this type of discourse makes me uncomfortable.

And before the inevitable criticism:
Yes, I know, it's spelled 'planetary'. I missed it while reading it for errors before I posted.

gwj,

(Sorry, but this comment is turning into a disjointed jumble as I try to answer to some of your points. I'm organizing as I go, but it doesn't seem to be getting any better.)

I don't think that you read my response to your first comment - I am not attacking religion, but I will agree with you that what I am doing is being done out of fear. (But not of the Bible.) What I am attacking Creationism, which is not the same thing. I am attacking the sheep-like belief in what you are told rather than what you can see. I am attacking it because it is dangerous - believing implicitly what I am told can make it all that much easier to believe that 72 virgins await my imminent demise in the food court at the mall. Much harm has ammased over the centuries from people believing what they are told, and I am very much afraid of the grip that this type of religious acceptance has maintained in the modern world. If a religion requests that you turn off your brain, then I have a problem with it, however I don't believe that Christianity necessarily does that. Some Christian churches do, but many do not.

And paranoic "Crusades" rant aside, if we have national leaders that are scientifically illiterate and incurious enough to accept these beliefs, and we do, then we are in a different kind of trouble. Having said that, they are not robots - they are humans and will rely on religion (or spirituality) for help in decision-making. If nothing else, religion is accumulated wisdom and discarding that would be foolish -> however relying on it for scientific "gospel" is just as foolish. And that is what I have a problem with.

And for what it's worth, I do worry that they guy with "his finger on the button" might actually think Armageddon is a good idea and that God talks to him. That might be a direct attack on Christianity, so I'll stop there.

I am trained as a geologist and most of my professors at university were church-going Christians that reconciled their religion with reality as they knew it. They could do this because they approached the Bible with the understanding that some elements of it are intended to be read symbolically, otherwise they do not make any sense whatsoever. They did not believe in a six-day creation any more than they believed in the sick punishments laid out for all sorts of infractions in Leviticus. Symbols or lessons from the past, but not directly relevant, except as myth and parable.

I respect that because I think that I understand the need that religion fills, having grown up in a religious household and having fought internally over my "conversion" to atheism for many years. I understand that for many religion is a necessity, because I felt the loss as I walked away from it. That said, I do have a problem with Scientology and Elvis worship, two things that I find remarkably easy to conflate if only because if Elvis wrote sci-fi it would probably be just as bad as Hubbards'.

"Where is the anger coming from?" is a fair question. I think, at least from my part, it is really a sadness (and disgust?) that after 150 years of post-Darwin biology and geology we still have fully half the population of one of the most powerful nations on earth, and doubtlessly a significant portion of Canada, so scientifically illiterate that we still have to even discuss this.

The belief in Creationism of course is not directly "intrusive in my life" now, except in the ways I laid out above, but I have a feeling that we are not that many slippery steps away from the American situation in which science classes are assailed with this foolishness regularly. I have daughters that are going to be in these science classes in a couple of years and I do not want to have to fight this battle - educational resources are stretched thin enough as it is.

Also, I don't want them to grow up believing that religion is idiotic, and unfortunately this is the risk that is run any time someone will ask them to believe something they know to be false. They will grow up with atheist parents, but atheist parents that will support them in whatever spiritual decisions they make, because we made spiritual decisions in becoming atheists.

That having been said, they will have fully-trained bullshit detectors and I hope they will know to leave them turned on at all times.

I find it interesting that you have read my post and comments as an attack on religion. I have no problem with religion - in some ways I sympathize with the Stephen Gould "eminent domains" theory in which he, a Christian and a paleontologist, described the exclusive regimes that science and religion co-existed in his mind. However there is also something to be said for the idea that anything you can't explain is magic until it is explained.

See? That's what I'm talkin' about. Well said, Kevvyd.

That was well said. And I am on the same page as you. Creationism is not something I want in a classroom. But, if someone believes in God or a God or a Creator, and, since there is no logical explaination for the earth or the universe, and if someone or something can be powerful enough to create what we see around us, then is it not logical enough to say that NOTHING is as cut and dried as you think it is. Science explains to us our origin on the earth, or our beginings, but it does not and never will explian the universe or the galaxy's, because, even if you do believe in the big bang theory, something or someone had to exist before that, Creationist, devout Catholics believe that God did, and that God made man, and, the more I lay on the grass at night looking at the stars and the universe, the more I think that I dont have enough evidence to dispell their theory. The Scopes-Monkey trial is over, and Spencer Tracy won, great movie by the way, even in the deepest part of the southern states getting Creationism into the classrooms is little to no chance, in Canada it has no chance, but to people like my mom and the congregation she belongs to, their beliefs are simple, if God is powerful enough to build the universe, then the little matter or creating man or even creating men from other living things is an easy afternoon for him. These great Canadians, Veterans, volunteers and mothers never shove their beliefs or religions on anyone, they have some great Sunday roast beef suppers though, and, never ever ever ever have their heads up their ass's.

Thanks.

Science explains to us our origin on the earth, or our beginings, but it does not and never will explain the universe or the galaxy's, because, even if you do believe in the big bang theory, something or someone had to exist before that...

Not necessarily. If Stephen Hawking is right, then the Big Bang created both space and time. If neither space nor time existed, there is no place or time for a god or creator to exist in.

Ow, my head hurts...

I disagree with you on the chances that Creationism has in classrooms. The fight has now morphed into a battle with Intelligent Design, Creationism with lipstick, but it is definitely still on. If, as you suggest, it doesn't have a chance in our classrooms, I would say that 20 years ago most thought that it wouldn't have made a resurgence in US classrooms either; so vigilence is the byword.

But, if your a science realist, then, surely you believe that you have to have SOMETHING to create a bang...the big bang just didnt start with two nothings crashing together in a vacumn of nothingness!! Now my head hurts. And you partly win. The small groups of zealots and radicals that want Creationism or Intelligent Design taught in class DO have their heads up their ass's. The larger group that believe in the Biblical teachings of man and the begining of man are just believers, wont harm anyone, and like I said, make great Sunday Church roast beef suppers for 4.95$.......
A bottle of red wine, a blanket, a summer evening...then look up at the stars and tell me with absolute conviction that your sure there isnt something or someone of a higher power that made all of this up. Now if you'll excuse me, I'll get off my soapbox and get back to work.

A bottle of red wine, a blanket, a summer evening...then look up at the stars and tell me with absolute conviction that your sure there isnt something or someone of a higher power that made all of this up.

There are few things that I would say with absolute conviction on topics like this because I am pretty open to having my mind changed by evidence. I have read a enough theories about universes popping up out multi-dimensional spaces and things even stranger to know that it is nothing that I am ever going to understand, if indeed it is understandable. However, it's not my first instinct to blame or credit an intelligent thing, I just kind of not worry too much about it.

Part of being human I suppose, is knowing our limits.

I also enjoy the roast beef suppers, and Creationism never seems to come up in conversation there. (Though it is handy to scare off the Witnesses when they come a-knocking on Saturday mornings.)